Listen: Real Scam Stories From a Detective

Please consult with a qualified professional for any investment or financial advice.

This is Play That Back, where we spotlight conversations from our main show that are worth a second look. Whether you're watching the news or binging a true crime podcast, scams and fraud are everywhere. The thing is, we only hear about it after someone's been scammed. What we don't hear as often is the story from the folks who stop the bad guys before they strike.

That's why we loved our chat with detective Betsy Van Patten from the Roanoke County Police. She's worked some pretty high-profile fraud cases, and, fun fact: She works really closely with our friend of the show, Hannah, who leads collections and recovery right here at the credit union. They get into what to watch out for, how crimes are prevented, and honestly, just a ton of, “Wow, I didn't know that moments.” So enough from me, let's play that back.

Hey. This is Hannah, and we're sitting down with Detective Van Patten, a friend of the show, and we're going to have a conversation about fraud. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Hannah. Appreciate it. Yeah.

So you've spent more than two decades investigating financial crimes. You've seen a lot, from checking credit card fraud to multistate skimming operations. What drew you to this kind of work, and what keeps you passionate about it after all these years?

So it's really a sad story. The way I got into fraud was because that was where the opening was for investigations. Nobody ever wants to work fraud. It's kind of interesting in that manner.

It's lots of paperwork and lots of hunting down things, and for some reason, people don't like that. So I got introduced into it and started working it and just found that I really enjoyed just working those types of cases and finding the people and, you know, helping my victims get their money back and, you know, potentially hold people accountable for the things that they're doing. And I really think differently than some other police officers in that I feel there's a certain customer service aspect to police work, and I hold myself accountable to trying to solve their cases and hold the people accountable for, you know, the offenses that they did against these people because, you know, money is tight these days.

Expenses are high, so people don't always have money to replace things that are taken from them. So if I can, you know, at least help them feel some satisfaction, it helps keep me, you know, passionate about what I'm doing just to help them out. What makes today's scams more dangerous or harder to spot? When I first started, we had a lot of the same type crimes.

There's a lot of the same type scams. Publishers Clearing House has been around forever. And back then, it was still here. It was just handled a little bit differently because of technology.

Those were initiated through mail and phone calls back in the day. Obviously, that's changed in this day's technology with all of our internet usage and emails and text messages. We've really seen a transition to those kind of devices.

Back then, when I first started, we really worked a ton of forged checks or bad, just, and simply bad checks written to stores. One of the biggest things we battle right now is spoofed phone numbers. And this is a huge problem because people are getting phone calls that they believe are truly these financial institutions or doctor's offices and whatnot, and they're providing some information to the person, making it believable. And that is definitely something that's making them a lot harder to spot because the person believes that they're actually getting a phone call from them. Kinda lets their guard down. And then they end up sharing information that they maybe would not have otherwise shared if it wasn't coming from a number that looked like their institution.

Emails, much more sophisticated. You know, in regards to emails, AI. I know that's a big question everybody's got about AI. Yeah.

Definitely. So the things that we're kind of seeing with AI in regards to emails is they're better able to write their emails. So back years ago, we could spot the fraudulent emails because they usually had some bad grammar in them. Sometimes people didn't catch it, but usually, there was some sort of bad grammar. You could read it, you're like, you would know.

Now AI goes in and fixes all of it and makes it sound very believable, legitimate. I think that's definitely one of the dangers that makes things hard to spot. So you've been involved in some high-profile investigations where you've stopped organized groups from stealing thousands through skimmers and cloned cards. Can you walk us through how these operations typically work and what everyday people can look for to protect themselves?

And, Hannah, this is where our friendship begins. So we’ve worked together a lot over the years. Yeah. For sure. And so as far as high-profile stuff and unorganized groups, I learned more about gas pumps than I ever thought I would, inside and out.

I was very fortunate to have kind people to teach me. I was able to work with Secret Service, and they were helping me get up and going. And the crazy part about the gas pump skimmers was there was not something external that could be seen for people to even know that there was a gas pump skimmer.

They were actually opening up the pumps and putting these devices on that were taking the card numbers as the customers were sliding those numbers. And they would process like normal so they would be none the wiser until I get the phone call from any other banking institution. Numerous calls from you saying, “I think we have a skimmer.” So I would go out, and I would actually check the gas pumps to see if we could locate those devices.

The—those were big. ATM skimmers were big as far as organized groups, and then these cloned cards that they create from because that's ultimately what they do once they get those card numbers. They were taking the numbers and then programming them onto those magnetic strips. Right.

Yeah. And then able to use those in all the different stores in different ways. The ATM skimmers, again, it, it's a device that's stuck deep inside the ATM to where these customers, again, don't even know that it's there. And the other things are the point-of-sale skimmers.

And I'm seeing a rise in those again. And I think it's simply because all of these, they hit so hard with the gas pumps and with the ATMs, which the ATMs are still there. Oh, yeah. But we—they're now trying to transition over to something that's readily accessible for them to use. Right.

And relatively undetectable. The point-of-sale skimmers just literally go right over the machines that all of, that we use every day at pretty much every retail store. Oh, yeah.

So it's, makes it, and they're not done by the locals. Of all the cases that we worked together—No—and that we were able to solve, most of the people that we ever caught were foreign nationals. Yep. So it makes it definitely a lot more difficult to work those cases.

Are you seeing more, like Bluetooth devices, or is it still like an implant in the machine? Point-of-sale skimmers, that, their overlays that they're using, we've seen both apparently. They've got the Bluetooth where they can connect to it to retrieve those numbers, and then they also will go in and remove the device to get the numbers off of them.

With the Bluetooth, they have to be relatively close to actually get those numbers off of it. So they'll be somewhere close in the store or maybe out in the parking lot, depending on the quality of the equipment and how far they can actually pick it up from. The way that they go about that, they'll go in and the device really just is, it looks just like whatever device they're targeting. So everybody knows some of them are a little bit different.

So they'll plan ahead for the specific devices. I think certain stores use the same devices. So they know, “Okay. We're going to go hit 7-Elevens.”

I'm just throwing something random out there. “We're going to go hit the 7-Elevens.” They do their educating and studying, and they get the devices that they actually use, and they make the overlays for those specific devices that are used by those locations. So it's very organized.

And I know that when we had the gas pump skimmers, that they were practicing these events. They told us in some of the interviews that I was able to conduct that they're training and they're learning how to do these. Oh, yeah. And we even have—they're making fake ATM faceplates.

Yes. Yes. Yep. And the one guy even told us, like, look. He wasn't trained. He wasn't allowed to do it in the daylight.

He was still learning. You know? So it's very, very organized by them. They may pick them up and they range.

There's, they're all different, and depending on which groups, like, they may pick them up, that, you know, within a day or two, or they may come back within the same day, late, just like, later in that day.

So it's really, that's just flexible depending on the group and what kind of equipment that they're actually operating—Right.—To get the information back. I know, especially during our time together, you arrested defendants from as far away as Florida, Las Vegas, and as you just said, you know, different countries, who are operating in Virginia. What do these cases teach us about how organized and far-reaching these fraud networks, so to speak, have become?

I would say, so they've always been, you know, kind of far reaching. People have always traveled to commit crimes just because it's—being detected is so much more difficult. Being identified is so much more difficult, which is why they're still doing it today. Yeah.

Because the success rate without getting caught is so much easier or so much higher. So while technology that we talked about earlier hurts us because they're much more sophisticated, it also helps us because it's now provided us tools to be able to use to help track them and work together with other law enforcement agencies. And even in the ten years that I've been, almost ten years that I've been back doing fraud, the technology has developed for helping law enforcement and communicating and being able to share information amongst each other to help track these groups. So it kind of, I think that the groups have always been there, but we're getting better and better at being able to track them thanks to technology.

Yeah. And cameras are everywhere. So that's definitely to our advantage. If I don't get a picture of you in a store, I may get a picture of you even somewhere else. Right. To help out with those stuff.

Definitely more and more collaborative programs. You know, when I was first working, I always wanted a program to be able to share photos because I knew in my cases that people weren't local.

So if I'm—they're not local, nobody local is going to be able to identify them. And, you know, more and more different collaborative methods have been, have come about to be able to actually share the pictures.

And, you know, somebody may have caught them in another location and know who they are by that picture. So by being able to share all over the United States, we're better able to work together to actually be able to solve those crimes. Many scams rely on social engineering, tricking people rather than just stealing their data. In your experience, what makes people fall for these schemes, and how can we train ourselves to spot red flags before it's too late?

So that's a lot.

So, you know, social engineering is, it really probably is one of the number one ways that they're really getting a lot of the information. You know, all the unfortunate data leaks from locations just because cybercrime is cybercrime and the hackers. All they have to do is have just a couple little pieces of your information, and they can become very convincing on the phone, which is awful because even people who are talking to them, and they think it might be fake, then the person provides a couple pieces of information that belong to them. They're like, “Oh, oh, no. This is legitimate.” So that makes it a lot more difficult.

They're smooth talkers. You know, I'm old. Sorry. You know, back in the day, these people were actually called con artists.

Same thing. We just call them scammers nowadays. And con artists are smooth talkers. It's all they do for a living, and they're very good at it.

And that's how they're able to get people to just kind of go along with what they're doing and trick them. We want to be helpful in nature. You know, we're taught to be polite to people and be helpful. And I think that plays a huge part in it because we don't want to be mean.

No. And especially the older generations, I feel like, you know, they've always just been as friendly as can be and very trusting. So—For sure.—And then the other biggest factor, even off of the spin-off of just being trusting, is they play on emotions. And so many frauds are perpetrated specifically off of playing on the emotions of the person that they're talking to. They drag you in and they get you into that emotional state. And when we're acting in that emotional state, we're not acting logically.

You know? So people on the outside are like, “Oh, you should have known.” In that point in time, you weren't in that emotional state to be thinking logically that it didn't make sense. Right.

And that's really one of the things that they prey on. And they get just enough conversation generated sometimes to find out things that are going on in the lives of the people they're talking to, and then they'll drag that right in. That emotion starts running really high. Yeah.

Makes it super easy for them. And they, like, create a sense of urgency. Yes. A lot of the time.

That was actually where I was getting ready to, you know, as far as red flags, urgency is one of the big things that we talk about, and that's literally the very first one on my list is, you know, there is a sense to act immediately. Anytime, that is one of the biggest red flags. Anytime somebody is wanting you to do something right now, there's no need. Like, there's no need.

And a lot of times I know in a specific scam where they're claiming that somebody's, you know, got arrested for a traffic accident or something like that. It's one of the big ones that's used. And they're playing off of the people not wanting this family member to go to jail. Well, it's the, it's not going to matter if you run down to the store and give twenty thousand dollars right then and there.

The process doesn't work like that. But people who haven't been involved don't understand that. The other big, big red flag that we talk about and we teach is paying by a certain way.

If they are directing you to pay specifically, and our big, big red flags, gift cards and Bitcoin. Those are the two most-guaranteed-to-be-a-scam methods of payment. Absolutely.

They will, they will also draw cash out. Gift cards, we should never be giving gift cards to anybody who is not somebody that I directly know, family member or anything like that. No government agency is ever going to be paid by gift cards. The IRS is not going to collect your taxes by gift cards.

You know, they also listed just being a friend sometimes, even on the Internet, to get people to send them gift cards. So anybody that's wanting a gift card from you and wanting you to send it by a photo to them is bad. And the worst part is we can't track those down. There's really not a lot we can do with them when they're purchased, because they'll sell them on third party sites, making it difficult to be able to figure out who's actually involved.

And then the Bitcoin, the worst part about Bitcoin is once it goes to that ATM, you, even if they are, if they retain, like, the wallet number, being able to follow that money, it's open. You can follow that money all the way through and see where it goes, but you have to have special software and information to be able to obtain whose wallet it is, what company it's even with, and often, those lead to dead ends to where we can't get the money back, even large amounts. I had a two-million-dollar case that a federal agency did help me track, two million dollars, and it went into a company that wasn't going to be helpful.

So it was overseas. There was like, no. Could be done. So Bitcoin is big and it's a big no-no, with and gift cards.

Those are probably the two big red flags for, on other payment methods. And then one of the other big red flags was if they're telling you to go get money, and they're telling you to give the bank a different story about why you're getting the money. Red flag. Red flag.

If you're going into the bank to get money to send to them, but they're telling you to tell the bank that you're doing a remodel, that's a big red flag. You know? If they're telling you to tell whoever a different story and then, or even just don't tell them don't tell anybody. It's a secret.

You know? Those are big red flags. Like, there should be no reason that you can't tell somebody about it. You work closely with financial institutions.

That's how our professional relationship started. To give listeners a peek behind the curtain, what does that partnership look like? So I feel very fortunate that I have relationships with my banking institutions and other law enforcement. But I've worked really hard because I realize that that is a very, very important part of working crimes and investigating things is having those relationships.

I am a member of multiple organizations to share information and offender information and what kind of crimes are actually going on. And what that allows me to do is to come back and share that with all of my local people. I can see the trends of things that are going to, that are happening that are going to eventually come our way, or I can just see offender information that I could share. “Hey. Be on the lookout for this guy.” Right. Or this person or this, you know, whatever, this vehicle, things like that I'm definitely able to share.

And then I have a local group that I run, the Roanoke Valley fraud investigators group, and we meet once a month, and we continue that sharing information. And the nice part about that group is that it involves the banks; adult protective services; law enforcement, both state, federal, local; everybody.

Postal inspector. Postal inspectors. Yeah. So it's a great group that allows the banks to communicate with adult protective services, you know, as far as, “Here's things we're seeing,” you know, “When you do reports, can you put this information in?”

And it helps just really collaborate and make sure that everybody's sharing the information the right way and helping each other out. Yeah. Absolutely. It's also nice for, like, the financial institution piece for us to know, like, okay.

This financial institution's also experiencing this here and they're seeing it as well. And I think that’s been huge, and that's also shared, like, to me.

And then I will even send out the emails to everybody to be like, “Hey. This is something that's going on,” so everybody can kind of look out for it. Yeah. As far as, like, peeking behind the curtain, if we have a crime that's reported, having the relationships with our banks, for me, is really big because it allows my investigation to go faster.

Because if I'm relying on getting in touch with a victim to get certain information that maybe they didn't have at the time, that slows me down. Having these relationships with my banks, I can reach right out to them. I could say, “Here's what we had. Here's what was reported.”

One we commonly see is they don't have their credit card number. Their credit card will get stolen. They don't have it. So I can call the banking institutions to be like, “Hey. This person reported a credit card stolen. You know, do you guys have the full card number?” By doing that, I'm able to go get video and things a lot faster and get things moving quicker. Because if I have to wait a couple days for the victim to get back to me, I may lose that video.

Having that information flowing back and forth, it allows the cases to go better. And quite frankly, you know, having that relationship with you guys allows us to help you. Right. If you're seeing some sort of a trend or whatnot, you're able to reach out and help us with that information.

We help you. Yeah. And in turn help our members. Right. So when friends or family come to you for advice, what's the first thing you tell them to do to protect themselves?

Oh, my poor mom. I tell her all the time. I'm like, don't ever give money away. I think we, I think we all do that with our moms.

So, I do have these conversations with them often, but I would say, I have a couple of things listed here: Don't answer the phone for anyone. If you don't know the number, just don't answer it. That's the number one way to knock all of this out. However, like I just said, with these spoof numbers that looks like it's your bank calling, you think, “Well, I should answer the phone.”

Yeah. So then I say, “Okay. If you answer the phone, and you're talking to them, and you realize that this isn't legitimate, or you realize that there's something nefarious about it, then just hang up.” Like, don't try to have a conversation because, remember back way on at the beginning, we were talking about, these guys are con artists.

Oh, yeah. So if you give them a little bit, they're going to run with it. So the best thing is just to hang up. Yeah.

Don't try to talk to them. I had one I did have a little fun. I decided to annoy a scammer one day. I probably called him, like, ten times that day, just to annoy him.

And he literally tried to convince me that he was a state police guy. And I'm like, “They don't work on Saturdays. Come on, man. I know all the state police guys.”

And then I asked him where his office was, and he hung up on me. Yeah. So, you know, don't ever try to talk to them because they just they're good at what they do, and they will try to convince you or get some sort of information out of you that you didn't intend to give to them.

Never, ever, ever give out your personal information, period.

Don't ever. Don't do your login information. The bank does not want your login information when they're talking to you. They don't need your login information to help alter your account. If something's wrong with your account on the phone, they don't need it. You can go to a branch. The branch will be glad to help you out with that.

And then you know in person that it's legitimate and they can help you fix your account. Don't ever give it out on the phone. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us today. We really appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us and hope to see you again.

Pay That Bill is a podcast designed to entertain and, more importantly, educate. The show is produced by Virginia Credit Union and is developed alongside our award-winning Financial Education team. We have a library full of free resources available online that can help you on your journey to financial success. If you want to learn more about what we talked about today, check out the links we have in the description of this episode.

The information provided in Pay That Bill is for educational and informational purposes only and should not be considered financial advice. While we aim to share helpful insights and general strategies, every listener's financial situation is unique. Consult with a qualified professional for any investment or financial advice. The hosts and guests of this podcast are not responsible for any outcomes resulting from actions taken based on the content discussed.